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Old 12-05-2005, 12:20 AM   #31
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I was refering to regarding the overall performance of the 10. It's a total package that has the power of a liter bike which handles like a 600. More power can be compensated with larger/better brakes & lines, you guys should know this, being you've actually been to the track.



You're speaking of rider ability not bike ability regarding white & red groups, doesn't seem to be much mention of this in Blue or GP. You don't see pros making many mistakes on liter bikes, why? cuz they know how to ride the bike.

My point from the beginning is that given a capable rider I'm sure the 10 will will not have a problem eating up 600's all day long. When the engineers at Kawi R&D designed that bike they did so with a strong spirit of the track in mind, not a lazy Sunday rider.

You're speaking more of technical / what you read info, rather than actual experiences...go out on the track with a liter bike, then go out on 6...THEN you'll see...the stuff about the pro's...throw that shit out the window...none of us will ever see their kind of set ups, doen't apply to regular track day org riding.
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:36 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Vin
And your average track-day attendee is no pro. Hence the 600 comments.

Mind you, I ride a literbike, but it's a twin with HP specs on par with recent 600's. Granted it has almost double the torque... but that's a different story.
True, but just because one's comfortable on a 600 doesn't mean one should discredit a 1000 either.

Also in your case even though you're running a liter bike you can also rely on excellent engine braking as well.

In general, it's funny sometimes how one needs to be deemed an expert by others before being able to provide any info. on a subject.
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakes
You're speaking more of technical / what you read info, rather than actual experiences...go out on the track with a liter bike, then go out on 6...THEN you'll see...the stuff about the pro's...throw that shit out the window...none of us will ever see their kind of set ups, doen't apply to regular track day org riding.
It's an obvious point that 600's are much easier to ride on track days, but that doesn't mean liter bikes are the devil just because of braking. We all know it's about the rider, how much experience does he/she have and how far are they willing to push themselves to gain it, it's up to the rider to be able to set that bike up right and learn every inch of that bike's strengths and weaknesses. Anyone can do it if they feel up to the challenge and have the extra cash. Guys that ride Blue, GP, or even race amature are there for a reason, as everyone knows, cuz their riding abilities are awesome, not cuz they're riding 600's.
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:19 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin
I'm with Kennedy and Jimmy here -- have you been to the track yet?

My line of thinking is that a bigger bike is going to carry bigger speed into a corner, hence the need to brake more.
OK, I am not an expert, but let's define "to brake more". Is it "to brake harder"? or "to brake more often"?
I don't see any problems with braking harder, if your brakes can handle it.

As far as I know corner exits is the biggest problem for liter bike riders. Too much power with no or very little throttle handling experience can be very dangerous.
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:39 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Cakes
Street and track riding are totally different. On the track you're always in the revs...always...and when you aren't, you're on the brakes...and with that 10 you'll be on the brakes alot(as mentioned.) It never fails...(mainly white and red group)the liter bikes go down the strait like at Summit Point Main, get to brake markers and boom...they're parkin it for T1...and those who come in waaay to hot go off the track testing out the kitty litter. IMHO, get a 600 for the track...hell even an sv650 like I got...72hp and its fun as hell passing liter bikes in the turns.
Again, I can't really comment on this, since I've never been on the track. But I can use a bit of logic here...
Let me ask you a question... Are you trying to say that there is a logical limit in power output on the track? And the 600 bike is doing much better with its power/weight ratio? Well, why would pro motoGP guys race something 240HP/320lbs dry? If there is a 120 HP reasonable limit then why would anyone want to race more powerful bikes?? If 120 HP bikes do better on the track, then they should choose them over 240 HP. It seems to me that rider's skills make that difference. And if you pass those liter bikes at the corners, in my opinion, that only means that you are a better rider...
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:10 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakes
You're speaking more of technical / what you read info, rather than actual experiences...go out on the track with a liter bike, then go out on 6...THEN you'll see...the stuff about the pro's...throw that shit out the window...none of us will ever see their kind of set ups, doen't apply to regular track day org riding.
I can't agree more here with you cakes, Unless you are one of the hayden brothers you can kiss the factory perfomance "gains" out the window. And as you know horsepower means nothing except for the straight away and even then the more corner speed you have the better drive you will get out of the corner...10 feet on the gas earlier can give you a couple of fractions of a second to your lap time and that = winning races.

I as well was watching those guys at the GP moto race going down summit thinking, holy shit they are flying and thats alot of braking to be done before nasty T1....I remember freaking out on my bike at first to...WAY over braking on my first few laps. I can't imagine if I was doing 170+

Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
My point from the beginning is that given a capable rider I'm sure the 10 will will not have a problem eating up 600's all day long. When the engineers at Kawi R&D designed that bike they did so with a strong spirit of the track in mind, not a lazy Sunday rider.
Another expierence, I remember at Summit being stuck behind a zx9r for a long time....given the fact that I would ride his ass every turn...then he would gun it on the straights leaving me in the dust only to have to overbrake to avoid hitting him in a turn. Ron im sure a 10r will not have a problem eating up the 600's but if you put an expierenced rider on the 600 and first day track rider on the 10r you get different results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
Also in your case even though you're running a liter bike you can also rely on excellent engine braking as well.
The engine is not a brake



Now that I have been able to put my thoughts on this here. Let me get straight to the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolerBig
OK, I am not an expert, but let's define "to brake more". Is it "to brake harder"? or "to brake more often"?
I don't see any problems with braking harder, if your brakes can handle it.

As far as I know corner exits is the biggest problem for liter bike riders. Too much power with no or very little throttle handling experience can be very dangerous.
CoolerBig: I really think you are overlooking this whole idea we are trying to put forth to you. The reason we are trying to suggest purchasing a 600 is to become familiar with the whole track thing first. Trust me as soon as you get on the grid you will be shitting your pants, then you have to worry about the power of a liter, doing this and making sure not to do that. It gets hairy.

You can be a street wonder, and come to the track and get your ass handed to you...even twice in one day.

Do it the smart way and listen to some of these people.
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy
if you put an expierenced rider on the 600 and first day track rider on the 10r you get different results.

The engine is not a brake
Of course Christopher.

It's true that in his case he would be better off starting out on a 600 for the track...but that's an entirely different subject regarding the 10 being overkill on the track in general.
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:51 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
Of course Christopher.

It's true that in his case he would be better off starting out on a 600 for the track...but that's an entirely different subject regarding the 10 being overkill on the track in general.

Agreed, the 10 could be overkill for a rider, but never for a track, well maybe east.......

Look at the MotoGP they are looking to downsize their power....
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Old 12-05-2005, 03:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy
Agreed, the 10 could be overkill for a rider, but never for a track

Look at the MotoGP they are looking to downsize their power....
Exactly, that was my entire point in a nutshell before I was berated.

Yeah well how much faster do those crazy mofos wanna go?!
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Old 12-05-2005, 09:16 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I was refering to regarding the overall performance of the 10. It's a total package that has the power of a liter bike which handles like a 600. More power can be compensated with larger/better brakes & lines, you guys should know this, being you've actually been to the track.



You're speaking of rider ability not bike ability regarding white & red groups, doesn't seem to be much mention of this in Blue or GP. You don't see pros making many mistakes on liter bikes, why? cuz they know how to ride the bike.

My point from the beginning is that given a capable rider I'm sure the 10 will will not have a problem eating up 600's all day long. When the engineers at Kawi R&D designed that bike they did so with a strong spirit of the track in mind, not a lazy Sunday rider.
You are leaving out the most simlpe and basic fact here... The guy in question is new to the track, and this is exactly the point we are trying to make. Nobody here is going to argue that the 10r is a capable bike, but thats with an experienced and capable rider.

When people ask for recommendations for a first bike, general consensus here is to get a 600 or smaller... Why would that be any different for the track? In fact our advice for the street is just that much more imoprtant on the track where you are more likely to push the bike to its limits.

The 600 is a much better bike on the track to learn on, mostly because it is a hell of a lot more forgiving. Not that you cant screw up on a 600, but its just THAT much easier to do on a 1000... Spinning the rear, entering a turn too fast, etc, etc...
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:18 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolerBig
Again, I can't really comment on this, since I've never been on the track.
Which is the exact reason why we're here...to help give everyone constructive advise based on our experiences. Like the 'ol saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make it drink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolerBig
Let me ask you a question... Are you trying to say that there is a logical limit in power output on the track? And the 600 bike is doing much better with its power/weight ratio? Well, why would pro motoGP guys race something 240HP/320lbs dry? If there is a 120 HP reasonable limit then why would anyone want to race more powerful bikes?? If 120 HP bikes do better on the track, then they should choose them over 240 HP. It seems to me that rider's skills make that difference. And if you pass those liter bikes at the corners, in my opinion, that only means that you are a better rider...
Again, comparing MotoGP to track day riding isn't even remotely close. MotoGP race tracks are huuuge with tooons of run off. They're also riding on $1,000,000 machines, their braking systems alone are probly worth more than your and my bike total worth combined. Next, mentality...Rossi, Melandri, and everyone else are on a whole differnt level of I don't even know what...they're insane, lol. These guys are hitting speeds upward 220+ mph on some tracks, there is no way they can do that with 120hp. And because of this, MotoGP is changing its rules, starting with cutting engine size to 800cc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolerBig
And if you pass those liter bikes at the corners, in my opinion, that only means that you are a better rider...
Not necessarily. It also means the bike is capable of doing certain things at certain times differently than another bike. For example, as soon as I hit the apex of a turn(or even a split second right before) I can go FULL throttle and just launch forward(this is one of the characteristics of an sv650 with any rider), whereas if I did that with a liter bike, I'd mostlikely spin up the rear and getting an upclose look at the pavement real qwik.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:43 AM   #43
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Well I've never been on a track with a bike but have in a car. The rule of thumb has always been hone the skills then go for more HP. As stated earlier the mistakes will only be amplified on a bigger bike. It's like a newbie starting on a liter bike. Yeah it can be done, but the consequences are much greater than learing on a 500. Since you aren't concerned about the cash, pick up a 600 already set up for the track.
The season is over you should be able to find something out there.
If it doesn't suit you you can always upgrade later.

As for the ice skate theory I think that will be the case with street/track acalmation as well.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:57 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Revs_17
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I was refering to regarding the overall performance of the 10. It's a total package that has the power of a liter bike which handles like a 600. More power can be compensated with larger/better brakes & lines, you guys should know this, being you've actually been to the track.



You're speaking of rider ability not bike ability regarding white & red groups, doesn't seem to be much mention of this in Blue or GP. You don't see pros making many mistakes on liter bikes, why? cuz they know how to ride the bike.

My point from the beginning is that given a capable rider I'm sure the 10 will will not have a problem eating up 600's all day long. When the engineers at Kawi R&D designed that bike they did so with a strong spirit of the track in mind, not a lazy Sunday rider.
I was a pretty capable Blue Group rider and guys on 600's would kick my ass all day long. A liter bike on the track is really hard to ride. Even on big, fast tracks like Summit Main. What most people don't realize is that they build speed so fast, you really have no idea until you are coming up on the braking markers. You seem to offer a lot of advice on this yet you have never ridden on the track nor a literbike for that matter.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:59 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy
Agreed, the 10 could be overkill for a rider, but never for a track, well maybe east.......

Look at the MotoGP they are looking to downsize their power....
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Did you ever notice that the track record on a 750 at Summit Main is only like a few tenths faster then the fastest times on a 600?
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