Motorcycle Licensing

[CBRBob]

Self policing, we need to take care of our own.

Tiered licensing can be put into place by MOTORCYCLISTS, not joe fat cat congressman's idea of what it should be. So yes, the AMA can help that happen. We just don't need the govt running the show and fouling it all up.

People that don't want to learn shouldnt have to, correct. But take away the scooter bullcrap at the MVS test. You want a busa, take the test on a busa. WE need to get new riders to take the class, not more laws. Make the testing harder, hell yes! The training is out there and available, responsible people do the right thing and need to get others to as well.

I believe we want the same thing, but you want the govt to take care of it. I want US, the RIDERS to take care of it.

[Rev]

The process of getting a license is so easy and simple, here's an example. ME!!!!

Years back i knew nothing about riding..I've rode dirt bikes, that's about it. I asked around and found someone who "taught" others to pass a test. I paid $100 bucks and here's what I got.


I was provided with ALL the questions and answer's the DMV Asked. I studied it 30 min before the written and got 100%

The next step was the road course. A 1-2 hour lesson on the back of a scooter the SAME morning as my DMV road test. I passed...

That's it. for $100 bucks and less then 3 hours of training I got a motorcycle license. Now..at the time, I thought it was ok and simple..but looking back I was provided with NO direction. I basically did everything on my own. Shit as soon as I got the bike I rode in a vest and some fucking cowboy boots (ask crystal). Only protection I had was a Lid. didn't even have gloves, why..because I didn't know any better. Until I got more experience, started reading etc etc...

Steve I agree that it takes longer to get your dry cleaners done then to get a Motorcycle license.

[CBRBob]

Exactly! You had no guidance. We need to get rid of the people that 'teach the test', provide scooters for 'the test'. The scooter option needs to be removed from the m/c test. We need people to make others aware they need to take the class and guide them once they have passed.

What we don't need is, a big govt entity diluting the class, making it like a visit to MVS (EwWwWw!) and then you are on your own since 'big brother' did its job.

[EvilSteve]

Rob, I don't know about you (well, I'm guessing you're more involved than me by a long shot) but I do everything I can with new riders to help them recognize the reality that riding a motorcycle is no trivial past time. I'm sure you've been doing that for some time too, how's that worked out for us? It hasn't. The thing is, if you're lucky enough to know some responsible motorcyclists (like I was) when you get started then you're off on the right foot. But don't you see that this is a really poor way to get people who don't know any better onto bikes? All the worst offenders for the dumb shit that's dangerous etc. just get more people into riding with the wrong idea. Then there's the other people that *think* they know better but don't. I know you're involved with motorcycle training to some extent, I'm sure you've seen it all but have a think for a second about some of the people you've met that don't ever go to the MSF but are good people. Think about the ones that had NFI about MSF or rider training and went out and bought a freaking M109 or freaking HD. All these people who at heart are good, law abiding citizens don't have any idea they need more than a trip around a block on a scooter in order to become proficient on a bike (like Rev). You're effectively leaving people to their own devices which is fine when you're talking about people that have all the information and some level of maturity allowing them to make an informed decision. Most people don't have the information. They don't know the most likely cause of a crash on a bike is left turners (or a corner depending on your stats). They don't realize that not wearing your helmet increases your chance of dying by 30% (or whatever). How are they meant to make a choice?

I agree that there are many times when keeping government out of our lives is a good thing, however, blindly following this mantra when the current system *doesn't work* isn't a good solution. Here's an example: credit ratings. I'd much prefer the government provide me with a credit rating and monitor it as opposed to some random company who's doing who knows what. In some instances a certain amount of regulation is better because the parties involved are not objective about the problem at hand.

If you're concerned about the government DMVing the MSF, how about we increase the cost of taking the motorcycle test at the DMV so that it's more expensive than MSF? I don't think that's a great option because I think the DMV should just stop doing those tests (mine was ridiculous btw, could barely understand the tester's instructions due to accent) and have the msf be the learner's permit and then you spend 6 months on a small capacity bike until you're ready for a bigger bike, then you take ERC but erc would be more involved.

[CBRBob]

In your last sentence you basically explained tiered licensing.

As for getting the word to the masses, when you get your permit, they ask you to schedule a test or if you are taking a class. So anyone not taking the class chooses to ignore it, thats there choice, wrong or not.

Working shows promoting beginner/experienced classes finds a few types of people. Ones that took the class and praise it, ones that are interested in it(non-licensed) and ones that have thier license and say 'i already know how to ride'. The reply is 'learn to ride better', they look at you like you insulted them. If they come over i explain the ERC. If they took the ERC, I point them over to TPM.

We do what we can, thats all we can do. The class does not cure crashing, it gives people a good foundation. If you force people into the class they can actually drag the class down. If you mandate it, how many times do I have to have the same person drag the class down and take up spots for people who want to be there.

Making it more expensive just promotes people to not take it. While free isnt the answer either, people must be motivated to learn and not have the 'i know how to ride' nose in the air mentality.

Personally, I had no idea how to ride. I asked a friend that I worked with to show me. He did, I rode in the parking lot on a vulcan1500. The next week, a zx-11. I knew then, i didnt know shit. I bought a magazine, found the 800 number and took a class. 2 years later, I was teaching it.

I know how mandated programs work for people and what the classes end up like. People that come in to train us on new training techniques from out of state ate astonished at the size of our org.(small compared to places like PA and CA) yes the amount of people we train and HOW we do it is what they are impressed with. Mind you, the same curriculuum, same eqpt. Yet, many more people trained with better results! Why? We rely on OURSELVES to be the best at what we do, not wait for the govt. to tell us. Now YOU all need to get to anyone and everyone to take a class. BRC, ERC, track...whatever. Word of mouth is the best advertisement.

Showing a stat. only makes people bored. They need to want to take a class, they need to WANT to learn. Thats the kind of people that should ride, the ignorant ones, unfortunately, sometimes ride as well. You see them parked at the bar and ride home drunk or buzzed. Who said one of my ex students wouldnt do that? People make choices, good or not, informed or not that can STILL be wrong.

[EvilSteve]

I still don't feel you're giving any good reason why licensing laws shouldn't be changed. What you seem to be advocating is that we continue as is and in fact potentially have less structure to licensing by taking the government out further if possible. Of course you're obviously entitled to your opinion and your perspective is at least interesting in that you're involved in the process already. Unfortunately, I don't think what your suggesting works.

I wasn't saying that the MSF should be more expensive, I was saying that the existing DMV test should be more expensive. In that way, people who really did care would be encouraged (more) to take the MSF course. From there, people would then be required to take something similar to the ERC to then be granted a open license. In Australia, there are 3 levels: Learners permit, Provisional License and Open license. What I'm suggesting here is that the government (used as a term for people who can actually implement change to the licensing laws in the US) should mandate at least a 2 tier licensing scheme for bikes. A 3 level system could work here as long as learner riders weren't permitted to go buy whatever bike they wanted, that's just silly.

What you seem to be suggesting is we go tell everyone to get training (which I'm doing already). I don't see how that solves the issue that I raised i.e. that the lack of adequate training and simplistic and in fact moronic motorcycle licensing process does not dissuade the people that should be dissuaded nor does it adequately train the people that really do want to ride.

[CBRBob]

Yes, you are right, some people lack the adequate training, and that is their choice. You cannot legislate common sense. The training is available, they just choose not to take it. The testing needs to be harder and yes again.........tiered licensing. Forcing a class on people does not make them learn. Some people will just take up space to get a license that way. Taking up a space that your friend/sister/mother would have gladly taken but couldnt because Bozo needs his license and HAS to ride his Busa next week to the local Hooters.
I know you meant the MVS should be more $, thats not going to dissuade them either, in the end the govt will just end up adding more $ to renew licenses to give just a few more people the class for free and say they did something about it.

Again, we are on the same side for safety. I just want motorcyclists to train future motorcyclists, not having to rely on daddy to force us to take a class. But take it because you WANT to.

[Surfinglbi23]

Good email man, let us know what happens

[EvilSteve]

I see what you're saying Rob - having willing participants results in more effective training (correct me if I'm wrong). Unwilling participants will clog up the process and diminish the value of the training for those people there by choice. How do we resolve this though? I personally don't feel that word of mouth is working. You may have a different experience but I find it hard to believe that anyone could justify the joke of a process we have right now. Perhaps limiting learner riders to the operation of 250cc and below and for 6 months, then taking the MSF gets you a perpetual Provisional license entitling you to ride 600cc (500?) and below and the ERC gets you the open license. What do you think about that? Do you think a Provisional style license should be limited to 500cc or 600cc? You know better than I do about people's abilities on bikes, that's why I'm asking. I'm thinking 600 is a good place to draw the line but that the 600 sport bikes are a handful anyway.

I haven't received a response from the AMA yet, not surprised. I am a member btw.

[CBRBob]

Currently in NJ we have a GDL for bikes. The problem is the govt. got it WRONG. You can get a m/c permit but you can ride on the street with a licensed rider for 6 months BEFORE you are allowed to take the road test or MSF class. We are working on that and I believe it will be changed.

We know 600cc sportbikes make 105hp and 1450cc hds make 60 so do we use a hp#? Unfortunately, if we go that route, before you know it, there will be hp restrictions. Goodbye R1, 1000RR etc. Thats not good either. It's tough, there is always good intention but sometimes they can be misconstrued and taken too far by non-riding politicans.

Unfortunately I think the AMA may just send you a form letter as a response. Believe me, besides the AMA, there are ABATEs and MRF involved in this and what to do. ALL of them are supporting self policing.

I would say 10 out of the 12 that take the class tell us that a friend/relative/co-worker told them they need to take the class before they buy a bike. The others are usually ones that found the info on the internet or through MVS. So we are getting the right participants. Many of the ones that go through state(free) programs take it because its free. Why not, it's free. No investment, so if they don't feel like riding, oh well(there is a wasted spot). If they do really want to ride, great! Let's all keep it up!

[ffejtable]

It shouldnt be limited on engine size, but either a power/weight ratio, or simply just power. A 600cc crotch rocket is just that, a rocket. A 600cc cruiser is a slug. The law needs to be black and white, and thats hard in a world thats shades of grey.

Word of mouth is certainly horrible.

While forcing people into a class they dont want to take may hinder the class, they really shouldnt be riding if they arent serious about taking the class first. Riding a motorcycle is much more dangerous and complicated than driving a car, and the laws to ride should reflect that. Right now they dont. By forcing them into an MSF class it protects them AND the rest of us as well. Better riders means generally safer group rides. Better riders should also translate to fewer accidents, which benefits all of us, most importantly our "right" to ride, now and in the future.

What's the solution? I don't know, I havent given it much though, but the current system could certainly use improvement. But in America its all about politics and not doing the "right" thing. For starters, mandating the MSF course instead of the DMV test would be a start. And its just not the DMV that could "enforce" it. It could be achieved by the insurance companies increasing rates, and then giving a hefty MSF discount (bringing the rate back to normal).

[ffejtable]

Originally Posted by CBRBob

I would say 10 out of the 12 that take the class tell us that a friend/relative/co-worker told them they need to take the class before they buy a bike.

Thats exactly the opposite of what you want though. Great, for those in the know and have friends, they are being referred to Rider/MSF courses. But only 16% go on their own, which is a frightening low number. Its THOSE people that we should be concerned about. There are a lot of people that dont take the MSF class because they dont know about it, cant "afford" it, or dont think its worth the time or money. Now it might be possible that of all of the riders out there, most of them know other riders, and thats why most of them are being referred, but this is where statistics "lie", and you need to understand the whole big picture.

For example (and numbers are made up and dramatic just to show my point)...

If 80% of all new riders have no friends that would recommend them to MSF, and 20% of them do know fellow riders, that means you are getting a very small number of riders in your class, as the 80/20 split doesnt correlate to the 17/83 split. You are only getting 17% of the riders in a group that represents 80% of the riders, and 83% of the riders that represent only 20%.

On the other hand if its more like 20% of riders have to friends, and 80% do, then the 20/80 split there correlates to your 17/83 much more closely and your classes represent the real world. Here you are getting 17% of a group that only represents 20% of the riders, and 83% of riders that account for 80% of all riders.

Unless you can correlate your numbers with the real world stats, do you know how much coverage your class has. My guess is most new riders do know existing riders, but how many of those existing riders would recommend MSF.

Its all sorts of crazy statistics that I forgot a long time ago.

[soda7o]

alot of reading here alot of good points.. just sit back and wait and see what happnes...

the only thing i do agree with storngly is the whole scooter on the road test.. take it on a scooter.. ride a scooter.. take it on a busa.. ride a busa..

unlike revs i rode before i got my licesne.. i rode big as sbikes to.. 1000cc and 900CC monster on the street before i even got my license
but than i took the MSF course and for 300 Bucks (yes NYC is a fucking ripoff) i did a weekdn or a total of 16 hours of riding on a nighthawk 250.. in that 16 hours of riding on th elittl enighthawk i learned so much more thna i did riding almost a year on the street. after passing the MSF class i got a free pass to get my license.. but not everyone in the class got that.. ( i thinkit was about a 70% passing %) anywho now i have my lic. i still ride withno gear sometimes and sometimes i ride with full gear (wellall the gear i have) but that clas saved my life when i had ot lay the bike down to avoid t-boning a car.. and manyother times when i stood up on two wheels because of the crap i learned in that class. morepeopel shoudl take it .. if they want it or not... they willstill get somethign outof it..

But people thisis america... big bussiness runs this shit. i mean seriously do yo uthink honda wants to stop approving squids at 12% and making a kiling especilaly since the squids crash and insurance willpay honda anyway ? adn 90% of the time the swuid willcome back for another one.. therefore generating honda more revenue and bigger slaes figures.. ohyeah andi am sure the insurance companies are not complaining when they raise rates...
the big manufacturors, the banks, and the insurance companies definalty have more $$$ and lobby harder for shit not to pass..

anyway that was my 2 cents.. now you smart and educated peopel can go on with you intense conversation


OH yeah Lucky.. i type super fast an ddont use spell check either.. so HA!

[EvilSteve]

That's really why I posted this email Rob, to get discussion. I agree that the motorcycling community needs to look after itself but I feel that we're all better served (for one thing) by coming up realistic and workable licensing laws and then submitting them.

The NJ law seems ass about to me, should be the other way around no? That's also part of the reason I'd like to see these kinds of things at a federal level (even though that may not be practical) because you get uniform training and that helps us all.

I personally feel that getting a motorcycle license should be much harder than getting a car license. Precisely because riding a motorcycle is much harder than driving a car.

I originally said power to weight ratio but my main point to that was that there should be a higher level of license that trains people adequately to ride more powerful (power to weight) bikes. It should *actually* be difficult to get, not just answering a couple of questions and riding around the block. This is where discussion comes into play, it's harder to ride a huge cruiser than a 500cc learner bike because the bike is so heavy but the power to weight would be probably about the same.

Edit: The whole scooter thing is idiotic, if you take your test on an automatic two wheeled machine, that's all you should be licensed to ride. In Australia (sorry for yet another example) if you get your license in an automatic car, you can only legally drive automatic cars. The same should apply in this instance, obviously it's a lot easier to ride a scooter than a bike so don't let people get licenses on them.

[JoeyHonda]

Originally Posted by Rev

The process of getting a license is so easy and simple, here's an example. ME!!!!

Years back i knew nothing about riding..I've rode dirt bikes, that's about it. I asked around and found someone who "taught" others to pass a test. I paid $100 bucks and here's what I got.

I was in the same boat, only I taught myself and saved the 100 bucks for what I thought was proper riding gear.... (windbreaker and baseball batting gloves )

I was lucky enough not to kill myself and eventually got some guidance... now I cant even ride w/o earplugs.... go figure.

There are alot of good points made.... I am all for tiered licensing, regardless of how it comes about. And if anyone has any tips/pointers on how we can reach the uneducated riding and soon-to-be-riding masses please pass them along.

Oh and a scooter should only be allowed for the roadtest if they force you to go from 59th/Broadway to the Brooklyn Bridge ..... catch?: do it between 4:30-4:45 pm on a Friday.

-jh
proud supporter of hitting pedestrians for a bonus :30 seconds